~ This is the transcript of an interview of Dr. Ratnesh Katulkar by Suresh Ahirwar ~
The recent Supreme Court decision regarding the classification of reservations for Scheduled Castes and Tribes, along with the emphasis on adding a creamy layer to it has sparked both support and opposition. This issue primarily concerns the castes among SCs engaged in sanitation work, a group that is often misunderstood. This lack of understanding has been highlighted not only among the general public but also by prominent figures, well-known thinker Yogendra Yadav is not an exception to it. To shed light on the realities of this matter, Dr. Suresh Prasad Ahirwar[1] discussed with Dr. Ratnesh Katulkar, a social scientist who has extensively studied the scavenging communities in the North Indian states of Himachal Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Bihar, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh. Based on this research he authored a book “Outcasts on Margins: Exclusion and Discrimination of Scavenging Communities in Education.” Here is a glimpse of Dr. Suresh Ahirwar’s conversation with Dr. Ratnesh Katulkar on this critical issue.
Dr Ratnesh Katulkar
Suresh Ahirwar: Ratnesh ji, Why is there so much uproar over this decision of the Supreme Court? What is this matter?
Ratnesh Katulkar: The lawyer teamed up with OP Shukla and others who came from the castes traditionally engaged in sanitation works and appealed for the classification of scheduled castes in the Supreme Court. They had filed this petition in 2014. The base of this appeal is the extreme backwardness of some castes of the Dalit community, particularly castes engaged in sanitation works that have been deprived of the benefits of reservation to a great extent. There is no doubt that within the Dalit community, this caste group is not only the most backward, poor, and uneducated, but due to their caste and occupation have been facing severe untouchability. However, this matter is not as simple as it seems. There are many misconceptions about the sanitation caste group, without resolving it no one can understand this matter properly.
Suresh Ahirwar: If so please clear these misconceptions.
Ratnesh Katulkar: The first misconception about the castes involved in sanitation work is that only one or two castes are involved in it, which are known somewhere by the names of Mehatar, Bhangi, Valmiki, etc. In a few states, some other castes such as Domar, Chuhra, Hela, etc. are added to this list but they are often considered sub-castes of Mehatars or Valmiki. However, this is not true; many independent castes have been associated with sanitation works. There is no mutual relationship of any kind between them. All these castes are different from each other, just like Chamar is different from Mahar or Dhobi is different from Nai.
The second fact is that with time, especially due to unemployment, some other Dalit castes like Dom, Musahar, Dumar, Domar etc. also started joining this work. Their ancestral work was not that of scavenging. For example, Musahars were basically agricultural labourers. They had special skills in farming. There is a saying in Bihar that farming cannot be done without Musahars. But time changed and they stopped getting work in farming. Then they left the village and migrated to the cities and then they got only sanitation work there. As a result, today this entire caste is found engaged in sanitation work. The same happened with Dom whose ancestral work was to cremate the dead but today they are found engaged in cleaning work.
In this way, many Dalit castes which were once engaged in some work considered clean, gradually started joining sanitation work. In some cases, as we have just mentioned, the entire caste and in some cases, some people from some Dalit castes were compelled to adopt this work.
Suresh Ahirwar: Please explain based on some concrete evidence.
Ratnesh: During my fieldwork in Shimla, I visited a settlement of sanitation workers known as Krishna Nagar. It’s located on a hillside, and at the lowest part of this settlement, there are 10-15 houses of Chamars, all engaged in sanitation work. Their situation is even more challenging than that of the Valmikis in the city, as none of them has been able to secure a sweeping job in a government department. Instead, they are forced to do cleaning work on a contract basis, earning minimal wages. Approximately fifteen years ago, their numbers were even greater, but many houses were destroyed in a landslide, leading some to relocate. Those who left the settlement are still engaged in sanitation work, scattered across various places.
Similar circumstances were observed in other states as well. For example, a few Dusadhs in Bihar, some Chamars in Sagar in Madhya Pradesh, some Mahars in Maharashtra, and some Satnamis in Chhattisgarh have also been found engaged in cleaning work. Additionally, some tribals who are considered outside the traditional caste system, such as the Gond in Madhya Pradesh and the Khadia in Jharkhand, have also been compelled to take up cleaning work. Today, there is hardly any Dalit caste without some presence in sanitation work. The same holds for tribals, who, after being displaced from their land, were forced to take up cleaning work in urban areas due to its ready availability to individuals and caste groups.
Suresh Ahirwar: What kind of relationship is there between all these sanitation workers based on caste?
Ratnesh Katulkar: You see, this is indeed the uniqueness of the caste system that ensures no two castes are ever regarded as equals. Dr. Ambedkar aptly defined this enduring reality as ‘graded inequality.’ Consequently, it is natural that the scavenging castes are not exempt from this principle. Discrimination and disparities prevail among them, mirroring the inequalities inherent in other castes.
Suresh Ahirwar: Explain in more detail.
Ratnesh Katulkar: First of all, we look at the interrelation among traditional sanitation worker castes. Bhagwan Das, a well-known Ambedkarite thinker from the Khakrob caste, a caste that has traditionally been involved in scavenging in Himachal Pradesh, sheds light on this issue. In one of his articles he said that when it comes to untouchability, the Valmikis of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar are no different. They consider other castes such as Hela, Dhanuk, Rawat, and Hans to be inferior to them and practice untouchability, similar to how the upper castes practice untouchability with Dalits.
The same custom was observed by Dhammadarshan Nigam, an activist associated with the Safai Karamchari Andolan. He once held a meeting of Safai Karamcharis in Sanchi, Madhya Pradesh. All the Safai Karamchari caste groups gathered in a locality but he noticed that some women were not sitting on the mat. On asking, the Valmiki women replied ‘These Basods are lower than us, that is why we do not sit at their doorstep.’
Let me share my personal experience when I went to the house of a Lalbegi during my fieldwork in Sagar, Madhya Pradesh. During the conversation, he started calling Domars lower than Lalbegis, immoral and whatnot! A senior activist Vidyabhushan Rawat even made a video of a scavenging locality in Varanasi, showing how the Musahars there do not allow the people of Bansfod (called Basod elsewhere) living ten feet away from their locality to take water from the hand pump of their locality. Because in their eyes Bansfods are untouchables!
From these facts, we can understand that within the castes engaged in scavenging, the practice of untouchability is at the same level as between a forward caste and a Dalit or between a Chamar and a Mehtar. Therefore, it is our grave mistake and ignorance to see the castes associated with sanitation work as homogeneous.
We now turn our attention to the Musahars of Bihar, who joined the sanitation sector somewhat later. As previously stated, they earlier used to work as agricultural labourers. Anyway, today their condition is the most terrible. They yearn for basic needs. Still, they are not freed from caste mentality; they cannot eat food that has been touched by a Dhobi because they consider themselves to be much higher than the Dhobi (usually referred to as Rajaks, who traditionally wash clothes). This practice demonstrates that at one time the Musahars must have been financially better than the Dhobis. However, as time has passed, the Musahars have lost ground to the Dhobis of Bihar in all sectors, including education. But they still feel ritually higher than Dhobis. Even today, the poorest Musahars are not allowed to eat food that has been touched by a Dhobi. On this matter, a Musahar respondent from Patna shared with me that in his childhood he used to see a few beggars going from one house to another begging. They used to have a large cloth bag with three to four pockets in which they kept the wheat, maize, and other flour that people gave them as alms separately. They used to receive flour more than their needs therefore they would sell it to those in need or to shopkeepers. Since Musahars were poor, they used to purchase flour from these beggars at low prices. However, the matter would worsen when they would figure out that the beggar is belonging to a Dhobi caste. In such a case they didn’t buy flour from that beggar. However, if the same beggar sold his flour to a shopkeeper, they would happily pay money to the shopkeeper to purchase the same flour!
In the subsequent case, for instance, the sanitation workers like Chamars of Shimla or Musahar of Bihar and so forth. Frankly, their condition is the most vulnerable among the city’s sweepers. They can’t get a government job as a sweeper in government offices because of the local Valmikis’ domination and control over there. They get only contractual work like garbage collection where they get low wages but no perks as entitled to a government sweeper. Their presence in any sweepers union is just for namesake. They can’t express their opinions or hope for a position there. They are the most helpless and marginalized among the sanitation workers. This isn’t just the situation of Chamars of Shimla alone, in any place when a new caste gets into this work; their condition is something very similar. Here they also fail to show their caste hierarchy against the Valmikis because of practical reasons.
The third instance involves individual Dalits from Dusadh, Chamar, Satnami, Mahar, and other communities entering into scavenging occupations. These people are in the worst situation. They are often ostracized by their castes, and they endure discrimination both within and outside the sanitation workforce. They become lonely and separated. They are to some extent accepted by their peers engaged in sanitation work, but their families remain isolated and are subjected to bias in the neighbourhood of sanitation workers.
Suresh Ahirwar: You mentioned that the condition of scavenging castes is worse than other Dalits. Some people even call them Dalits among Dalits. In light of the recent decision by the Supreme Court to classify Scheduled Castes and Tribes, do you believe this decision to be correct? What are your views on this?
Ratnesh Katulkar: The underlying belief behind the Supreme Court’s decision is that a few castes such as Jatav, Mahar, Dusadh, Chamar, or certain tribal groups like Gond, Khadia, etc., are taking the majority of the reservation benefits. However, the Supreme Court seems unaware that even by classifying scavenging castes separately, a large section of them may not benefit at all.
Suresh Ahirwar: Why is this so?
Ratnesh Katulkar: I would like to highlight the issue of large-scale migration of scavenging castes from their native states to other states. In my fieldwork, I observed two specific cases. One is the Domar caste of Uttar Pradesh, which is involved in scavenging in many states of India. I found this caste to be abundant in Chhattisgarh. Upon further investigation, I discovered that they had migrated from the Banda district of Uttar Pradesh to Chhattisgarh a few decades ago, and many more had migrated to Maharashtra, especially Mumbai and other parts of the country. A similar case was seen in Jabalpur, where a large population engaged in sanitation work had migrated from Andhra Pradesh and settled around the time of India’s independence. There is also a large number of sanitation workers in Chhattisgarh migrated from Orissa.
These cases are remarkable because, despite being sanitation workers, these castes are not included in the list of Scheduled Castes, but are instead classified in the General Category. Because according to constitutional provisions, any formerly untouchable caste is considered a Scheduled Caste only in its native state. When people of that caste migrate from their home state to another, they cannot be included in the Scheduled Caste category in the new state; rather, they are considered part of the General Category.
These cases are just examples of a larger issue. Sanitation workers have migrated in significant numbers from their native states to various parts of the country. Consequently, these individuals are unable to avail the benefits of Scheduled Castes status under any circumstances. They cannot access job reservations in the new state, and their children are unable to benefit from scholarships in schools because they are not officially recognized as Scheduled Castes. Their children are therefore unable to finish their education because of financial limitations. It is expected that the Supreme Court and scholars like Yogendra Yadav will take cognizance of this serious problem and work towards finding a resolution as they talk of carrying justice to the last person, but they are ignorant of this grave issue. They talk about taking justice to the last person! This seems like a joke. We expect from the judges of the Supreme Court that they will not do stupid things like the judges of the lower courts, but it is useless to have such expectations from them.
Suresh Ahirwar: Why do you doubt Yogendra Yadav’s scholarship?
Ratnesh Katulkar: I used to watch Yogendra Yadav on Doordarshan since my college days. His gestures and style of speaking made me imagine that he is an intellectual. Yet, as my studies and experience developed, I understood that my appraisal was not correct. I have heard him deliver very stupid discourses at Jantar Mantar during the Anna development. His cooperation in this right-wing movement affirms his mental level. We have also seen his silly defence of the wrong portrayal of Ambedkar’s cartoon in the NCERT textbook. He repeated the same mistake. He said that the scavenging caste is so backward among the Dalits that everyone in this community is doing sanitation work, they have no intellectuals among them to speak on their behalf! The poor CSDS fellow is unaware that, like other Dalit castes like Chamar, Mahar, and so on, the community of sanitation workers includes many intellectuals, officers, businessmen, and even individuals who have settled abroad. Babasaheb’s associate advocate Bhagwan Das belonged to a sweeper caste of Himachal Pradesh. In NDTV debates, a well-known retired IPS from this caste makes frequent appearances. Not only are members of these castes professors at Central University, but Prof. Shyam Lal has even been the Vice Chancellor of the university. Among Bollywood celebrities’ scavenging castes have little presence, famous singer Hans Raj Hans is one such. If we talk of politics, the strongest leader in the Dalit community, Buta Singh belonged to this caste group. I’m calling him the strongest because he was much more powerful than Ram Vilas Paswan, Mayawati, and Kanshi Ram. He was the central minister for a long time and was a close confidant of the strongest Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. Who offered him a powerful Home ministry. From this, you can figure out his power. These facts demonstrate Yogendra Yadav’s statement as incorrect. As far as the rest of the scavenging persons are concerned, there is no doubt that their condition is more pathetic than some other Scheduled Castes. No one can deny this truth. But here we have to be aware of the fact that there are deprived people in every Dalit caste even today. It is another matter that our Supreme Court can easily see well-suited Dalits, but cannot see poor Chamar, Mahar, Dusadh, Gond, or Khadia engaged in sanitation works.
Suresh Ahirwar: If this is so, is it inconsistent to apply the creamy layer among Scheduled Castes? This will exclude not only the forward castes among Dalits but also the upper-class people of the sanitation workers caste group from the ambit of reservation. In such a situation, its benefits will reach the last person easily.
Ratnesh Katulkar: Of course, this is Justice Gavai’s argument; he said that some Dalits who have taken advantage of reservation for 70 years and become officers are taking the rights of a poor and needy Dalit. This assertion of the Supreme Court appears to be legitimate at first look. However, the issue needs an investigation. To understand this, let us look at Justice Gavai himself. He currently serves as a Justice on the Supreme Court, his brother runs a private college and serves as Deekshabhoomi’s secretary, and he is also influential in politics. His father was a seasoned politician and served as the Governor of one or two states. Justice Gavai belonged to the creamy layer. The issue at hand is whether Justice Gavai and his brother snatched the rights of a poor Dalit by obtaining reservation benefits. Of course not, since they were the children of such a father for whom going after positions like peon or clerk and teacher would have been an affront. Therefore, he and his brother made their professions without reservation and became successful in their respective fields. They are not a special case. Each son or daughter of a Class 1 officer or Class II officer, whom we can call creamy layer, won’t apply for the post of a peon at any cost. They will not apply even for a Class 3 job, such as clerks etc, because doing so would be an insult to their stature. Indeed, they will apply for Class 2 and Class 1 services where in normal circumstances their competitors are middle-class Dalits.
Secondly, many of the courses in management and other professional sectors are now so expensive that only the wealthy would consider admitting them there. The fee structure in IIMs, IITs, and BITs Pilani, is as high as lakhs, moreover, the environment in such campuses is so elite that no poor Dalit can survive there. Such institutes on the opposite side prepare experts of the highest level from where they attain administrative and strategy-making positions. In such elite institutions, the presence of poor Dalit and tribal people is impossible. Of course, due to reservation, these schools are open to middle-class Dalit-tribal students whom the Supreme Court refers to as the “creamy layer.” These middle-class Dalits and tribals can advance to higher positions and fulfil their roles. However, if they are denied reservation by calling creamy layer, the presence of Dalits and tribals in such higher establishments will become zero. This will be disparaging for the Dalit and tribal communities, as they will lack zero presence in higher levels. As a result, Brahmanism will be widely established in the nation. This is the damage of barring the alleged creamy layer of Dalits and tribals from the reservation.
Another issue is that even the child of an ordinary government employee is not eligible for a scholarship based on his family income. Therefore, the child of an SC/ST officer is generally not a challenge for a deprived Dalit-tribal anyway. Yes, if a labourer’s child reaches the position of passing the IAS exam, then he can face competition with the child of an officer, but such cases are extremely rare. Anyway, today the children of Dalit-tribal officers are making careers not only in the private sector but also abroad; they do not compete with a poor Dalit. Therefore, even on rational grounds, it is illogical to recommend a creamy layer in the Dalit-tribal class. On the contrary, this recommendation is likely to declare the children of many sanitation workers who are in permanent positions in government jobs as creamy layer on the pretext of their family income. The state is not going to show generosity in the case of Dalits as it is showing for EWS, rather it will search and plot to show as many Dalits and tribals as possible as a creamy layer.
Suresh Ahirwar: But the most deprived should have the first right on the reservation?
Ratnesh Katulkar: Even if 100% reservation is given to sanitation workers and other deprived Dalit-tribal castes and tribes, its benefits cannot reach the lower level because reservation only talks about reserving some posts, but does not give any major relaxation in the eligibility criteria. Yes, sometimes it gives some relaxation in age and sometimes in percentage. But here it has to be understood that whether you talk about admission to a college or a job, in both places, there are certain conditions like a minimum of 50% of marks in graduation and certain passing marks in the entrance exam are a must. There are many communities in our society which are so deprived and excluded that it is difficult to find any college-educated youth among them. Even if there is, one is not capable enough to get passing marks in the entrance exam due to a lack of facilities, in such a situation she cannot get a job or admission despite reservation. In such a situation, even if the government declares all middle-class Dalits and tribals as creamy and reserves 100% of SC/ST quota only for poor and deprived Dalits and tribals, the deprived cannot get its benefit. All these posts will be declared as NFS i.e. Not Found Suitable and will go directly to the forward castes. This will be fatal for all Dalits and tribals irrespective of caste and class.
Suresh Ahirwar: But on this subject, Yogendra Yadav says that in this condition, this post should again be given to the Scheduled Castes/Tribes of other categories and not directly to the upper castes.
Ratnesh Katulkar: This is Yogendra Yadav’s comment and not the ruling of the Supreme Court. In the matter of law, Yadav ji’s comment has no value, the government will do as per its wish. Obviously, due to the dominance of twice-born (Dwij) castes in the court and power, they will want to convert all these posts into general posts. We have seen in many cases how the Supreme Court has given arbitrary decisions by flouting the general logic and facts. EWS reservation is one such. If it was implemented in the name of providing support to the poor, then it should have included only the BPL section irrespective of caste. The creamy layer of the Dwij caste is openly taking advantage of it, but here the Supreme Court is silent and so is Yogendra Yadav. They don’t see the creamy layer of so-called EWS Dwij. It seems they are only jealous of the progress of a few Dalits and the tribals.
Suresh Ahirwar: Then who is responsible for the backwardness and vulnerability of some sections of the Dalits and tribals?
Ratnesh Katulkar: The government is directly responsible for this. If education has not reached some communities even after more than seventy years of independence, then the direct responsibility for this lies with the government. The government should ensure that every child in the country gets a quality education. Until quality education reaches every citizen, one cannot move forward. Without proper education, reservation will be no different from a toothless snake.
Suresh Ahirwar: Will the Dalits also have to do something?
Ratnesh Katulkar: Of course. The work that the government cannot do will have to be done by the Dalits themselves. The ruling of classification was born out of the fact that the Scheduled Castes are not a homogenous group and casteism and untouchability prevailed among them too. This is not a false accusation but a truth that every Ambedkarite must accept seriously and take the initiative to end this and create a caste-free Ambedkarite community. Very few people know that Babasaheb himself used to organize community meals among different Dalit castes in Maharashtra so that mutual hatred and untouchability could cease among them. But today’s Ambedkarites have limited all their Buddhist Viharas and institutions to only their castes. The spirit of inclusion is not visible in them even in the slightest. There is a need to repeat the efforts of Dr. Ambedkar to unite all the castes included in the Scheduled Castes. This may be difficult but not impossible. We should thank the Supreme Court in the sense that it has exposed our shortcomings and mistakes. If we, the different Scheduled Castes, abandon the useless Brahminic beliefs and adopt Ambedkar’s philosophy and start practicing not only inter-dining but also inter-caste marriages between the different Dalit castes, then who will dare to touch the constitutional right like a reservation?
Also, the castes that are involved in scavenging traditionally or later will have to make up their mind to leave it and adopt new professions or new skills. Just as Babasaheb had appealed to all the Dalit castes, especially Chamars and Mahars, to leave their ancestral work and adopt new jobs, the scavenging caste will also have to adopt this lesson. A clap can never be made with one hand, so both the so-called advanced Dalits and the deprived Dalits will have to make efforts at their level and will have to be open to including other backward sections of society with them. This one effort will not only establish social justice but will also mark the beginning of a social revolution.
Suresh Ahirwar: Sure. This is the need of the hour. Thanks for the conversation.
Thank you very much.
~~~
Dr Ratnesh Katulkar is an author and activist. His recent published books are ‘Outcasts on the Margins: Exclusion and Discrimination of Scavenging Communities in Education’ and ‘Prefaces of Forewords of Dr Ambedkar.’ He is also a teacher of Navayana philosophy, his videos on navayana are available at youtube at https://www.youtube.com/@NavayanaBuddhism . He could be contacted at ratnesh.katulkar@gmail.com~
Dr Suresh Prasad Ahirwar teaches Sociology at Rajmata Scindia Government Girls College, Chhindwara MP.
