Rahul Sonpimple
Kuffir: Jai Bhim Friends. Welcome to Ambedkar Age. In this episode of the series, we speak to Rahul Sonpimple, a key member of the Birsa Ambedkar Phule Students Association(BAPSA) in JNU. Welcome Rahul, Jai Bhim! Could you tell us what BAPSA is all about? What is the purpose and motive and what drove you to start this along with other friends?
Rahul: Before I talk about BAPSA, I would like to tell about the History of the most marginalized section in JNU. There was this organization called UDSF, which was founded in the late 90s by Dalit students. It went for a long time, it is still there. It created consciousness or discourse around of Ambedkar, his thoughts, his philosophy on the campus. But since it was a Cultural & Social Organization, the Left Brahminical Political parties thought that they can use such platforms to get Dalit votes. For a long time, they even tried by sending their own “agents”. During 2010,11,12,13 in these years, there was a churning that started in these years. People started talking about some new things.
Students were coming from most marginalized areas, background as well as Community/Caste. People from Orissa, Haryana, Rajasthan, interior parts of Maharashtra, slums, etc. The generation was coming from the society where the discourse of Ambedkar& Bahujan movement had gained a good space in the larger Socio-political discourse. So they were coming with the idea of autonomy. The idea which Kanshiram used to talk about. Phule’s ideas, Savitribai Phule’s ideas started gaining momentum. People from SC/ST/OBC and other lower caste Minorities started gaining Literature around those ideas. It became accessible for this community. The students known to this discourse started coming to the Universities. When they came to Universities, they joined UDSF. They also saw what other organizations are doing, what is their discourse. Then they started feeling anxious. The anxiety of misrepresentation. The anxiety of cornering our discourse. Most of the Left Student organizations felt that these Dalit organizations unless they come into Electoral politics, they are fine. They are celebrating Ambedkar Jayanti, they are fine. They are with you. You are not a “threat”.
This kind of feeling/understanding started growing among the students who were coming from marginalized sections. They started thinking of forming a Political Organization. So out of this churning, students from different sections. From Rajasthan, Orissa, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Telangana, etc. thought let’s have our own Political organization, which will represent the thoughts which are there in the Society. The thoughts which our icons, our ideologues, our leaders have produced for us. Finally, BAPSA was formed in 2014 on Birsa Munda Birth Anniversary. We started going among the students what we are. We were always faced with this question- why BAPSA? So when we were explaining (and that is still our core ideology) that we want to have what we call is “Bahujan Autonomy”. Here we also talk about the OBCs. Not the OBCs that the Left Talks about, which have Landed with them. But the OBCs that have lost everything in the ground. We are talking about Dalits that are coming from the ground. The ones coming from slums, with acute poverty were coming to Universities, the Tribals who were coming.
Our ideologues like Babasaheb talked about autonomy. He told us that we should shape our History by ourselves. That started mobilizing the Bahujan students around it. With the passage of time, people started understanding us, liking us what we were saying. In 2015, we first contested the JNUSU election. Everyone ignored us. Our President, one of our ideologues Chinmay Mahanand (he is from interior parts of Orissa). I want to talk about him. He is the one who had a clear understanding of what is Capitalism, what is Caste Capitalism- his experiences of Orissa from the ground. He was our first candidate who contested the JNUSU election and the other for General Secretary was Bal Gangadhar Baghi, who was coming from the movement in UP (Uttar Pradesh). They contested the first election. Everybody ignored us. Everybody felt that they will contest, not win and then stop everything. But they didn’t know that the ideas on which we were talking about & spreading are not ideas that the Upper Castes get produced in their mind when Che Guevara movie is released in Dining Hall.
These ideas are our everyday experiences. These ideas have to do with our everyday life. In the next year elections that I contested, we proved and emerged as one of the largest organizations in the Campus. That time, the Left had to make an Alliance against us. All these organizations AISA, SFI etc. – they campaigned us collectively, saying that if you vote for BAPSA, then ABVP (Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad) will come. I answered this question many times in my debate also, that they create the false binary. The False Binary of Left and Right. From that election, our People. This is what we were thinking. This is how Caste Produces this everyday inferiority. The upper Castes are the core to produce this inferiority of Bahujan students on the campuses that unless you come with us and listen to us, you cannot do anything by yourselves. We countered and defeated this kind of inferiority. We made our students realize that you can win. You can stand by your own, you can speak on your own platform and create History. From there, we started building up the organization, through our thoughts (we don’t have Resources like the other organizations). We don’t have aakas (Godfathers) like they have, like the Yechurys, the Karats, Krishnans.
Kuffir: You don’t have any large Political Organization backing you.
Rahul: Our organization is run by our own money and resources that we have in the campuses. So that is how we function. In the Recent GSCASH election, we won with the highest majority of votes. Our Organization President Bhupali Magre, who comes with a lot of struggles, from the slums of Mumbai.
Kuffir: This is recent history. In Other Universities, Dalit/Bahujan representation has been active earlier than JNU. In a popular sense, JNU is regarded as a very “Revolutionary” and popular place. Ambedkar Students Association (ASA) was started in 1991/92 in HCU and started contesting elections much earlier than in JNU.
Rahul: It has a very clear answer. The answer is JNU is North India. JNU is a typical North Indian Village. Where you have a Dhobi who is washing your clothes. You have a Valmiki who is cleaning your Toilet. And you have your Mukherjee, Banerjee, Chatterjee in your classroom, who is writing history for Congress and making policy for the Congress Govt. This is what is happening and has happened in JNU for a long time. This is what Gandhi must have visualized many times. The typical Agrahara and North Indian Village. The post-Mandal Phenomena changed many things in JNU. The coming together of the OBCs. With the passage of time, the Reservation Policies have created space for Dalits somewhere and the consciousness & awareness about education. Adivasi, OBC and Dalit students started entering the campuses. Slowly they started talking about their own discourses. So JNU, DU and most of the campuses in this country saw the Left and Right Discourse. The fight is akin to the fight between 2 Thakurs in a village for their own land. One Thakur is killing the other Thakur. Congress Thakur is beating a Thakur. Both are fighting for power. Same was happening in JNU. It was upper Caste Savarna Right Wing and Upper Caste Savarna Left Wing. Both of them wanted our people on their side. So the false binary between Left and Right was nothing but a binary for Upper Castes for their own power. One is a regressive Savarna and other is a Polite Savarna. But both are oppressive. One is saying you have to clean this dirt, while other is saying before cleaning has this Food.
This is what is happening in JNU for a long time. When I entered JNU, I saw these differences very clearly. They were stark. I was fortunate that before I came to JNU, people like Chinmaya, Bhupali and other people had already started BAPSA and I got this platform. Through this platform when I started understanding this question, the first question me, Manikanta (from Telangana) asked was where are our people? What is our Representation? You won’t believe that in the entire JNU campus, there wasn’t a single OBC Professor. And these were the people talking about the poorest of this country. People like Jayati Ghosh, who was talking about the Tribes, in big magazines and going for Interviews and all. People like Mukherjee, Banerjee, Chatterjee, Sharma, Pandey, all talking about the Proletariats, which they want. But when we found the data, there is no OBC Professor on the campus. When Dalit PhD Scholars applying for Assistant Professor Posts, you are saying they are not found suitable.
From there, we started building up this Discourse. As you asked why it took time for BAPSA to come in JNU, while ASA was in existence since long. This is the answer. JNU is a typical North Indian village.
Kuffir: Plus it is regressive than many other Universities, where Dalit and Bahujan Politics has found a place much earlier and found Representation also. Now that you mentioned Mandal 1 and Mandal 2. The role of JNU has been in a way “Deleterious”. It is harmful in both occasions. It was the discourse produced by JNU that brought in the Creamy Layer and the financial element in Mandal. This is the image that they put that anyone enters JNU becomes a revolutionary.
I have been to JNU and they are mostly rich upper Caste Kids, but their claim is to be “revolutionary”. This kind of image must be very confusing to Bahujan students who enter JNU for the very first time. The picture presented outside and the reality inside is very different. It is so contradictory. It must have been to you also.
Rahul: I was fortunate enough that way. Before coming to JNU, my brother is a part of the Bahujan movement. From my childhood, I have seen people working on the field, on the ground, creating discourse. During my early college days, I was fortunate to get introduced to Bahujan Literature. That day, me and Gurinder Bhai (Gurinder Azad) were discussing, that the first time I read Annihilation of Caste when the cost was Five Rupees, translated by some Waghmare (Marathi writer). I got exposure towards Bahujan Literature and the cunningness of the Savarna. When I came to JNU, for me it was easy to identify why they are doing this. JNU, as we see why this country is a Caste Country, a Brahminical country, as all Resources are owned by the Brahmin- Banias and other Savarnas. JNU is the typical space where the hegemony of upper Caste rules. What the Brahmin says, everyone has to believe. Same with JNU. JNU Left used to say this thing “What People say tomorrow, JNU says today”! So this arrogance is nothing but the arrogance that the Brahmin always carries. JNU because it is in the North, in Delhi and having all kind of Capitalist support from all Progressive and Regressive Politicians and media people, is a place where they could say something and disseminate it & propagate it.
Kuffir: I would always find it funny. You would get names like Rajput Surnames, Bhumihar Surnames, Brahmin surnames and all of these are big landlords in Bihar, Bengal, UP, and they become suddenly big revolutionaries in JNU. So this is very strange to an observer. But JNU is still projected as very revolutionary, progressive place. Even though ABVP is strong, but some strange comments that some socio-political organizations put Bhagat Singh before Ambedkar. Ambedkar was born earlier. In the last 4-5 years, there has been a lot of churning because of BAPSA, UDSF’s entry and more active interventions in JNU. Then elections happened, BAPSA happened and before the election, Rohith Vemula happened. Suddenly they produced the slogan Jai Bhim, Laal Salaam. How did this happen suddenly?
Rahul: When these people started doing this, many of us started thinking about why they are doing these things? I always found the answer in what Phule Saab or other intellectuals said. That they Upper Castes in this country are more flexible. They can adapt themselves more easily. They work under compulsion. They know that if they don’t work in this situation, they will be vanished, finished. So after Rohith Vemula movement, even in the Una movement, campus students are aware that this discourse is happening. BAPSA is there, Rohith Vemula was part of ASA, people started associating with his life. So the Left knew that if this goes on very smoothly, we will vanish very soon. The majority of Dalit Bahujan students had realized it anyways. Not everybody has to suffer extreme kind of Caste reality but everybody experienced that caste reality in one form or the other. Upper Castes, through their privilege, always know that Caste exists in the campus. But they (through different kind of binaries) try to hide it. So this was a big threat for them. They started giving Jai Bhim Laal Salaam slogan just to protect their hegemony. Just to protect the Autonomy (that was about to happen in the JNU campus very smoothly). The Unity of all the marginalized sections, I would say mostly the marginalized caste. So they knew if this happens, they will completely vanish. And at the same time, the questions that BAPSA was/is asking were so powerful that they know that if this happens, they will win the election. And If they win the election, they will then do mobilization on questions like why there is no OBC faculty. Why there are no SC/ST/OBC women in the Women study department. They will ask why the Muslims are only in the Arabic and Urdu departments? Why there is no Muslim in the Economics and Political Science, History Department? So they know that BAPSA is asking all these problematic questions. And I always say they are the Changu-Mangu of the Professors that are sitting in different Centres. They work with this network. The Upper Caste faculties and all the Left-Right Wing organisations they work with the nexus like this.
And not just the students. All the Upper Caste Faculties that have been sitting there from a long time creating all these false discourses, producing all the false arguments equally contributed to creating this slogan and false idea of Jai Bhim Laal Salaam.
Kuffir: Rohith Vemula movement brought out Caste in the open and they couldn’t hide it anymore. So naturally, they had to produce this slogan, which was only a slogan and nothing beyond that.
Rahul: I don’t understand this. Bhagat Singh in his entire life- I respect his struggle, I am not reducing it. But in his entire life, he reduced the Caste question to the Dalit question. And Caste question is NOT a Dalit question. Caste question is an Upper Caste question. It is a Baniya question, is a Brahmin question, is a Kshatriya question. It’s not a Dalit question necessarily. So you are putting Bhagat Singh equivalent to Ambedkar. I am not reducing him. But you just cannot equivalent Bhagat Singh to Ambedkar. Ambedkar is far ahead. He is the one who brought revolution in this country, whose followers without any resources are creating their own life, own history. Can you imagine on the 6th of December, without any Govt support, people from across the country come with their minimum resources in Train to visit Chaitya Bhumi? So you just cannot equivalate Bhagat Singh and Ambedkar together. I would say this is in fact doing disrespect to Bhagat Singh. Because Bhagat Singh if you see, comes from a society which was completely rural, as he was talking about imperialism and imperialist society. These people (the Left ones in JNU) have most of the families as capitalist and imperial. Some families are having the WAQF board. Some family members are MLAs/MPs. All these children are Royalty/Aristocracy. These are the same people that are capturing Tribal land in Jharkhand, Orissa and Chhattisgarh. So I am saying they are even reducing Bhagat Singh. If any Poor Dalit or Adivasi student will read about Bhagat Singh, he/she will get inspiration on how to fight at least at a young age.
Kuffir: You have also pointed out that how Bhagat Singh reduced the Caste question to a question of Dalits. But Babasaheb said that Dalit suffering from Untouchability because of the existence of the Caste System. Untouchability is just a by-product of the Caste. So people just upturned the whole question and placed the whole burden on the Dalits. So they also place the whole burden of secularism, nationalism, and all the broad isms on the lower Castes – Dalits, Bahujans and the Tribals. This happened particularly dramatically in JNU in recent times. So they produce the new binary of the Left and the Right, and then National-Anti National, whereas the question is the Savarna vs. the Bahujan, which concerns us more. The cornering of Resources and the deprivation of the Bahujans. So how did you deal with this creation of kinds of False Binaries?
Rahul: I wouldn’t say it is a conspiracy theory, but this is Savarna behaviour. And what is that behaviour? We can see this is a pattern of their behaviour. For example, when Ambedkar is asking about the Separate Electorates for Dalits, Savarna has a typical behaviour. Namboodripad is showing the same behaviour what the other Congress Leaders are showing. The regressive Brahmins showing the same behaviour what the progressive Brahmins are showing. So the same time when Rohith Vemula movement was happening, the Brahmins and mostly Upper Castes were showing the same behaviour. And that behaviour was the same- this National and Anti-National. These people had put blame on Ambedkar that you are dividing the country because Ambedkar was asking stark questions. Here also, the Rohith Vemula movement was asking stark questions. And this National-Anti National binary, the Upper Castes have used for their benefit. This has always helped the Congress and BJP and Left & Right.
I agree with what Kancha Ilaiah Sir says. The Upper Castes of this country (the Brahmins, Banias) are Anti-National. They are anti-National because the majority of Bahujans of this country are tilling this land, Laboring Day and Night, Producing and they have a big stake in the economy, but they don’t get anything in return. Do not allow them to the Universities. When they come to the Universities, you discriminate them, you give them fewer marks, you kill them. You are the Real Anti-National of this country.
I don’t know whether I am answering your question directly or not. I am saying the entire cultural industry of this country is owned by the Brahmin Bania. What do they show in everyday Television & Films? Sexism, Vulgarity? And the same people will tell us about Nation & Nationalism? The Upper caste of this country are ruling this land, they have colonized the Bahujan. All high profile jobs are handled by the Upper Caste. Your Bureaucracy is handled by the Upper Castes. Your education is handled by Upper Castes.
Kuffir: 95% of Faculty in JNU is Upper Caste
Rahul: The Judiciary is handled by the Upper Caste. And the data shows that there is no justice by the court in this country. You are a country which is struggling with education. You are the country whose borders are not secure. You feel a threat from China. You are the country that is not doing good in economics. You have the highest poverty. You are Anti-National. This is precisely why the Left also doesn’t want to bring this discourse. They bring discourse to America. Thakur kills Dalit, but you want to talk about American imperialism. I am saying there are realities which we understand. You don’t need to come and tell me what American Imperialism is. I know. It’s my everyday life. But you tell me your father controlling all the property, resources, capturing all the Institutions, and you are coming and telling us we are anti-nationals!
Let me share what really happened in JNU. On one hand, the so-called right-wing (I can call them goons, uncivilized goons) they came and said to some upper Castes that you are Anti-National. To which the Upper Castes replied “We are not anti-National, as we participated in the Freedom Movement. Therefore we are more national and you are less national”. As I always say, this feud is the typical feud between Two Upper Castes for the Land in the Village- for the family land. And in their discourse, we are nowhere.
The Rohith Vemula movement was helping us to ask questions on Caste Representation in Campus & Universities. One point I would like to add in this answer. In this National, Anti-National binary, recently these Right Wing People attacked the radical Left (the ones who speak about Bastar, but have never been to Bastar), they attacked their star the Indian Che Guevara. This Discourse came where one girl is coming and saying “My Father was in the Military therefore I have all the right to counter ABVP.” This is absolutely fine. Other People are also coming and saying my Brother was in the Military. Now I want to ask the question “My Father was a Rickshaw Puller, My neighbour Usman works in a Garage. Do we have the right to counter ABVP and their discourse of Nationalism, through your lens? Because my father was not in the military. Usman’s father was not in the military. So that’s what I am saying. This National, Anti-National discourse is all about the Upper Castes.
Kuffir: We saw the Dalit Bahujan voice being raised in JNU. Mandal-2 also paved the way for Representation. Now it’s seen that Representation in JNU is worse than any of the State or other Central Universities. I think it’s much better in HCU. So when you raise the questions of Representation, you are also blocked out. You have raised it on several occasions. You have also spoken against how injustice is meted out in Viva Examinations. In other areas too like PhD Seats. You also spoke against other student specific issues. On this, how supportive have been the other student organizations (the “Nationalist” organizations) that call themselves progressive?
Rahul: They only have pretensions. Most of the faculty in JNU are part of these organizations. Both the Left wing and Right Wing. It’s a big Upper Caste network which is working there. They never ask these questions. So obviously in this fight, they will not come very openly and starkly. They will never ask this question that “You are talking about Gender justice, but where the women under whose name you have written books, take Royalty from Oxford and do your World Tour? Where are those women?” This question they will never ask. This is how they work. “Shetji-Bhatji”, as Mahatma Phule used to say about this network. So this is there. So the people from Left wing and right wing parties are the kin of their Upper Caste Faculty Gods.
Kuffir: You said the Faculty is also part of the support system. There is outside presence of Political Congress too. The media itself too. So this intergenerational heritage is also there. But this question is very cleverly put down every time you raise it (about Representation). How can a University which excludes 85% of the people call itself progressive, revolutionary?
Rahul: They also want to fight against Fascism. Whenever I go back to my room and read about Ambedkar, I feel JNU politics is reproducing. I am not comparing ourselves with Ambedkar. I am talking about the discourse, the argument. Whenever we bring this question, they reduce it saying the larger fight is against Fascism. Now who are the Fascists here?
Kuffir: How come the Dalit Bahujan students have to fight the larger thing in the University? They can only protest. But how can they ignore their current problems and their particular issues?
Rahul: The Dalit Bahujan Students are not happy with their everyday life in campus. With their guide, their supervisor, with the people from Administration. With their colleagues and Upper Caste friends. In their personal life. You want them to fight against Fascism? They are not asking us to fight against Fascism. They want us to fight for their urban anxiety. I call it their Urban anxiety. This is Savarna urban anxiety, which is there in JNU and in other campuses. What is this anxiety? Let me try to explain. When there was Congress in Power, they would ask you want fund for something, then take this? You want fund for a new Centre, take it. You want to do this World tour, do this. Now BJP is in power. Congress had imported their own people in the name of Left. Now BJP wants to import their own people. So this is their urban anxiety. My community, my people doesn’t have to do anything with their urban anxiety. But Brahmin thinks what they are thinking is the Universal Truth. They want to impose on ourselves. So they want us to fight against their urban anxiety and want to use us. And they create this false narrative of fascism. What is Fascism? Congress has institutionalized the Caste atrocities in this country. You go to Haryana, Marathwada (in Maharashtra), Rajasthan, Orissa and other parts of this country. Congress has completely Institutionalized the Caste Atrocities in this country. You think this is not Fascism? Entire Ranchi resources are owned by Upper castes now. Entire Chhattisgarh resources owned by the Upper Caste, that is not Fascism? JNU itself is Fascist? All these upper Castes are Fascists and Anti-National. Both the Left and Right. You are playing with Caste Capitalism. They don’t want to fight against fascism.
When BJP came into power, who are fighting against them? It’s the Dalits! It’s the lower OBCs in Maharashtra converting into Buddhism when the RSS is giving the call for Ghar Vapsi. Lower OBCs in Maharashtra going to Deekshabhumi and saying our Ghar is Buddhism and not Hinduism. They are not writing article in Indian Express. They are saying we are doing it. So I am saying who are fighting. It’s the Dalits! The Ambedkarites, the Bahujans they are fighting at the ground level, against the Right wing. And these upper castes just have the urban anxiety. Tomorrow is some other party comes into power, it will be the same
Kuffir: It’s one brand of Fascism against another brand of Fascism.
So we had talked about BAPSA’s purpose and motivation and a little about the background. You are among the most prominent leaders of BAPSA and Bahujan students in JNU. Would like to know about your background, your childhood, your influences and motivation. You have also come from the slums, which the media has noticed and repeatedly says, from Nagpur, which has a vibrant arena in Bahujan politics. Could you please talk about that?
Rahul: I come from a place – the slum’s name is Dhammadeep Nagar. It’s very symbolic. It’s mostly Dalit Buddhist slum. My Father was from Bhandara District of Maharashtra. He was a Landless Labourer there in the village. Then he migrated to Nagpur. He did all kinds of jobs and finally bought his own cycle rickshaw. Then he started living his life in the slums. My Mother is from Nagpur. Because of poverty, she couldn’t go to school. She studied till 3rd or 4th standard. She had to drop out. She couldn’t study further. After marriage, my parents lived on rent for a while. But due to bad economic condition, they had to find some place in the city and hence they went to the slum. I was born and brought up in the slum, with my other 4 brothers. I grew up in the slums, completed my education in the Municipal Corporation School and Government schools.
I lost my Father when I was in the 7th Standard. He would tell my bothers stories about his migration to the city. At that time, there was Republican Party of India(RPI) movement was very strong. The movement against caste Atrocity was very strong. My Father was influenced by the RPI agitations. He was a strong Ambedkarite in that sense that he would read Ambedkar books, tell us stories. My elder Brother had a huge influence of my Father on him. That’s why he joined BAMCEF and BSP movement that time. He was an inspiration for me. People would participate in the movement, I would see them in my Basti, they would sit in my house, they would discuss issues. They would imagine that the Society one day would be Casteless. So I grew up with culture. On one hand, we had acute poverty where we had to struggle for everyday Food. But at the same time we had these people discussing about their dreams. They would discuss about the dream like Ravidas’ Begumpura- the Casteless & Classless Society. That kind of ideas they used to discuss.
So I grew up in that culture. On one hand, there is acute poverty, anger against the structure. I also did all kind of jobs. I did Car Washing, I worked as a Child labourer, I worked as a Construction Labourer. The only inspiration was my Mother, Father, Brother. Through that I somehow understood that the only way to get out of this poverty and help my people in the slums is education. So no matter what happens, whether I fail or pass, I have to read, write, and complete my studies. That’s how I completed my Graduation in Nagpur and I joined Tata Institute of Social Sciences for my MA Degree. After that, I worked for 3 years in Mumbai. I worked in Gujarat for 2 years. After that, I got Junior Research Fellowship(JRF) in Sociology. Then I joined JNU in Sociology.
Kuffir: You also had influence of the Big Buddhist environment in your neighborhood. Despite poverty, there was a strong motivation to study among most people. This must have been a very unique environment, where on one hand intense deprivation and also strong desire to assert, improve themselves. So when you came to JNU, how do you think this background helped you?
Rahul: When I entered in JNU, many people I used to know them before JNU, because of being from the community. So we used to talk, discuss. They used to tell me about the politics in JNU and other things too. So one thing when I entered JNU, I knew there was this Discourse by Regressive and progressive Savarnas. They create around you this Savarna morality. There is this Savarna Gaze always on you. Who are watching you, judging you, stigmatizing you. But since I come from this very strong background where I have seen poverty, everyday struggle for Bread & Butter, and on other hand strong sense of autonomy, changing our existing situation, I wasn’t even surprised when they started stigmatizing me or the organization. I was strong enough to fight against the moral Savarna Gaze from both Right and Left.
Very interestingly, when BAPSA started asserting itself and started gaining momentum in the campus, if the Savarna cannot defeat you, they have the typical Savarna behavior, which cuts across Caste, Class & Gender, they will stigmatize you. They tried with Ambedkar, with Kanshiram, with small leaders to big leaders. Same thing they did in the campus. When BAPSA started gaining momentum in the campus, they started saying BAPSA is doing Identity Politics. If they are doing Identity Politics, they are backward, regressive. But we said if my oppression, my father was a landless labourer not because he could not have a land or didn’t want a Land. He didn’t have Land because upper Caste have control on the Land. My Mother couldn’t study because she was a Dalit woman and was poor. She was poor because she was a Dalit woman. So my identity is not just the identity. My Oppression is based on my identity. It’s imposition. Therefore this oppression is not my personal oppression, it’s a structural oppression. Therefore we started seeing that our Politics is not just what we are talking about Identity, we are talking about Structure. We are talking about structure that exists in everyday life. We are talking about a structure that operates us. It puts one at a higher level and puts the other at the lower level. So they started doing this, even on Social Media every day. The people running BAPSA come from the most marginalized section in terms of Gender, caste & class. So they know it. They are also coming from the movement which is operating outside.
Kuffir: So they didn’t become a “Dalit” or “Bahujan” after entering the University. They already were aware.
Rahul: JNU campus is not reaching any ideology to the most oppressed of this country. They already had experiences, through the movement which is going outside. Rather I would say movements like BAPSA, ASA and other Dalit Bahujan organizations in other campuses are humanizing and civilizing upper Castes in the campus. Because when we say there are not OBC Professors, we are telling you there is no democracy in campus. Let’s have a Democracy. When we say upper Caste students are beating Dalit students on account of being a Chamaar, this is the Caste Based Barbarism that you have. We are saying you have to civilize and become humane. I think we are benefitting the University telling that there is no Democracy & civility in your campus. So let’s have civility. Let’s talk about the civility.
Kuffir: BAPSA’s emergence in the last 4 years seems to have affected both the ABVP and so-called Left based parties/organizations very badly. They should have welcomed the emergence of people from the Under-Class (what they call). They fear BAPSA rather than being encouraged by it. So how do you read this situation? Because you are shrewd political observer also. Taking yourself away from this and seeing it as a student of sociology and political science. How do you see this, their anxieties?
Rahul: I see that they see threat from us. You are doing Politics in the name of most oppressed in this country. You want me to look like a Proletariat. But I am not a good Proletariat for them. Like for White Liberals in America, Malcolm X was not a good Blacks for them. Similarly people of BAPSA, ASA are not good Proletariat for the Left Savarnas. They are Bad Proletariat for them. So when they say “we are for the marginalized, Proletariat, for the Underclasses”, I would say they are against them. Because if they(oppressed) are demanding something, if you are Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, or any other ism you follow, you(Marxists) would welcome this step by the people.
Kuffir: They should have been the first to raise the question of Representation, even before Mandal.
Rahul: They were the same people who opposed the Mandal.
Kuffir: They still oppose. Reservation is still an unfulfilled promise. It’s largely unfulfilled. We have this unfortunate situation and still have. People are driven to suicide and lots of people drop out in JNU. How do you deal with this? There is hope with Bahujans asserting themselves, while there is reality of them being mistreated, excluded and discouraged from studying there.
Rahul: Basically, one thing I want to accept that being an assertive socio political organization member, we are not able to stop all kinds of discrimination. Because we are most marginalized, we don’t have faculty support, we don’t have any admissions support, or any kind of support. We are fighting on our strength. Many times we fail.
Kuffir: The larger civil society outside also doesn’t support.
Rahul: Yes. So many times we fail. We failed to support many students. Like Muthu Krishnan. It’s not the failure of just one organization. It’s the failure of the Society. Failure of the Institutions, which people claim are Modern and democratic. I am saying in the Universities like JNU and many other campuses, Dalit Bahujan students have to pay the toll for their assertion. I was suspended. My other Dalit Bahujan friends in the JNU campus from different organizations and independent ones also, got suspended by JNU administration. These Liberal, left radical Savarnas- they all were very happy as they never supported our cause. They never came in our support. So this shows where we are.
Kuffir: They were happy that you were suspended.
Rahul: I can say that. Because we are creating trouble for them. They didn’t support us.
Kuffir: Neither AISA nor BASO nor DSU?
Rahul: Nobody supported us. We had to fight our own battle.
Kuffir: What about SFI?
Rahul: SFI! They are another ABVP in the campus. They practice all kind of Caste practices. They practice Hindu Brahminical religious practices in the campus. So they are equivalent to ABVP. Just saying Lal Salaam or Marx Zindabad doesn’t work. Your practices in everyday life is all about Caste, your Brahminical religion.
Coming back now. Being a member of BAPSA, we have failed not because we aren’t working. But because we are fighting against a huge force. The huge strength which comes together when they have to fight against us. These Left & Right, all these people, internally come together against us. MuthuKrishnan was a student of the history department, which is the most notorious & casteist department of JNU where all these Mukherjee, Banerjees, are the managers & contractors of the Congress for a long time, writing Gandhi family’s history. And these so called Left people are faculties. They didn’t support Muthu. The moment you talk about their hegemony, very systematically they make you feel that you are nothing. Muthu is a result of that systematic violence against Dalits in the campus. But they do it very systematically. Because judiciary is with them. They have big lawyers. They have big people in their support. They have a huge network. And we are the people coming from a slum. We are the people coming from interior villages. We are searching our avenues where we can seek support from people. And we are fighting against this huge force. After seeing this as a leader, as someone coming from the slum, I sometimes feel let’s stop this fight. It’s taking a toll with suspensions and fines to many others, and still the things are going on. For them (Upper Castes), if they go to the jail for 2 days or 15 days, they become a political prisoner. The entire media of this country gives them Prime Time. But when there is a suspension or a suicide of Muthu Krishnan, Ravish Kumar doesn’t conduct the Prime Time debate on Caste in the Campuses. The fight we are fighting against the forces is very strong, who has the hereditary Caste colonized property.
Kuffir: BAPSA’s struggle has only started now with a 3 year old organization. The University(JNU) despite its promotion of its progressive image, has one of the worst fascist structures in higher education. You have also been in TISS. How do you compare? I am asking purely from a point of view to know is this a pattern everywhere?
Rahul: TISS I would say being in Maharashtra & in Mumbai- the faculties are also very upper caste faculties. I studied in Social Work. Social work is all about Gandhian morality and upper caste morality. I said once “you eat Ghee so that you can clean my shit”. So that’s how the Social work operates in this country. And that’s what Gandhian morality is. But since TISS is in Maharashtra and Ambedkarite movement is very strong in Maharashtra, they know it that if they practice discrimination like how upper Caste Practice in other universities, there will be repercussions. So I would say TISS in my life played a very important role. First time I saw a Computer in my life. It was the place where I started learning English, slowly. TISS was the first time I started writing in English. TISS was the first place where I started reading Literature of the different countries, different theories, and I also got an opportunity to meet different kind of students from different sections, different religions, different regions, different Castes, etc. So it was a place for me to learn many things. TISS for me played a very important role in my life to understand many things. Because in MA, in a place where you don’t have to worry about your Bread & Butter, you can peacefully go to library and study & come back and appear for exams. For a student like me who was coming from the slum, for me sometimes it was like heaven.
Kuffir: So it was good for you. But anything about the intention?
Rahul: Yes. See many times the Upper Castes work under compulsion. They are smart and they work according to the situation. They know TISS is in Maharashtra. If anything happens, they have a community outside the Gate. The people who are outside the gate can support them. In Delhi, this is not the case. Delhi & JNU is the place where caste economy works, caste networks works. So they have all impurity.
Kuffir: As you said JNU is Ramrajya
Rahul: yes. It’s a Gandhian village. Gandhi’s village republic. It’s a typical North Indian Village.
Kuffir: Your thesis is also very interesting. Your first influences were BSP and BAMCEF. Your family was also heavily into activism due to BAMCEF and BSP. So your thesis is also around that.
Rahul: My thesis is on Post Ambedkarite Dalit leadership in Maharashtra.
Kuffir: Could you share some insights from it?
Rahul: I tried to map/understand this post Ambedkarite Dalit Leadership. What happened after Ambedkar. The post Ambedkar movement gained momentum and reached the interior part of Maharashtra and it became part of the Life of the Dalits in Maharashtra. Leadership emerged very strongly. They then split. You know the history of RPI. They split for their selfish interest and even Congress played a very important role in their split. Then there are these studies on entire Dalit Buddhists or Ambedkarite movements in Maharashtra after Ambedkar. There are studies by the Upper Castes, academicians. What do they argue? They have argued basically that “After Ambedkar, the Dalits failed Ambedkar. Ambedkarite movement got finished. There is no movement. There is no leadership.”.
My thesis goes against this normative understanding. This is Upper Caste normative understanding about Dalits in Maharashtra & their leadership. I am saying after Ambedkar the movement & leadership got strengthened at grass root level, in everyday life. In post Ambedkar Maharashtra, there are 3 major developments. One is autonomous cultural movement in the form of Buddhism. The other thing is the Dalit movement break this caste Normalcy which doesn’t allow you to acquire the militant form of injustice. It came in the form of Dalit Panther. Third is everyday leadership and everyday activism became very strong. So you see this example of Bhima Koregaon. Dalits are able to stop the State for an entire day. You know at the major level, leaders have split. But there are leaders are local level in every struggle that are very strong at the grassroot. They are the ones leading the movement at the grassroot level. So they could manage to do this very strong protest against this caste attack by the Brahmins in Maharashtra.
Kuffir: As you pointed out, RPI is very important to the strategy. They (Liberals) talk about the failure of the Dalit Leadership but they don’t show the challenges faced. As you are in JNU, RPI also struggles with the same challenges. No Resources, no support No outside support, no inside support, no State support. The State Constitution mandates that the weaker sections should be supported but that doesn’t happen. RPI faces the same kind of problems. Then there was Congress system of politics which was actively trying to stop them at every constituency, every ward, every block level. Despite that there is this contradiction. Socially there is a strong autonomous Buddhist cultural movement with very positive values like education is very important, livelihood is also very important and not just the traditional kind of livelihood but a respectable livelihood, and also a political orientation which recognizes fascism much earlier than what CPI, CPM or any other parties do.
In the last elections in Maharashtra, there were some people in the media pointing out that despite 2 Crores Dalit population in Maharashtra, RPI didn’t get much seats. The truth is that Dalit population in Maharashtra is about 65 lacs. Out of that the voters would be less than 35-40 lacs. They got 20 lac votes they went to Non Congress Non BJP parties. Which means 40-45% of Dalits, is going to RPI. It doesn’t mean they are going to BJP or other National party. There is a strong dissent against this Brahmanwadi politics. This contradiction also gives you strength. You must be aware of it.
You have also been the national spokesperson of the young in the media just because JNU has to be accommodated and a Dalit in JNU has to be accommodated. So how do you see the National situation? You have been travelling a lot for the Bahujans at large, How have the other Dalit students in the country viewing it? How do you read this political situation?
Rahul: I am really positive about the Development which is happening at the ground level. When the RSS said Ghar Vapsi, the OBCs in Maharashtra said we are not Hindus and our real home is Buddhism. But nobody wants to talk about it. The Liberal Academicians, Upper Castes they don’t want to talk about it. Because this doesn’t suit their argument. In Karnataka, it is happening now and at other places too. At the movement level, things are happening.
I don’t see the society through the electoral analysis. Electoral analysis doesn’t provide with the adequate information to understand the developments which are happening at the ground. Because we know the BJP is a party which has come in the power with the minimum vote percentage, because of all the splits in the other votes. So on the one hand, Bahujans are finding their ways to make themselves strong through the different movements- big & small. On the other hand there are serious challenges in their everyday life. These entire upper Caste academicians have created this False narrative of atrocities on Dalits by OBCs. I want to ask them who are the OBCs that are committing atrocities on Dalits. Name those OBC castes’. Because they know if the idea of Bahujan gets realized/materialized at the ground level, the threat is there for them. So they will just write a book or article Atrocities on Dalits by OBCs. But I am asking who are these OBCs? What are their Castes? Tell me.
Kuffir: They say Marathas are OBCs, Jaats are OBCs.
Rahul: But I am saying the lower OBCs, their situation is so bad now. The artisans caste, most of the servicing castes, they lost their local small sources of earnings and they are struggling for livelihoods. This attack on the huge population of this country, they are also getting awareness about their reality. They are also going beyond this meta-narrative of Hinduism, meta-understanding of politics of Congress & BJP. They are also finding the new avenues to protect themselves. I see a future through a very positive lens. Because the Bahujans of this country have been fighting since centuries. And our fight is the fight not just for the Political Power. Our fight is the fight to form this Autonomy at the ground level in everyday life. Like what Kanshiraam Saab used to say all the time that “Agar aapki Saamajik Jadein Mazboot nahin hongi, toh aapki raajneetik jadein mazboot nahin hongi”. And today’s situation where this huge majority of the country (which we also call as poor or Bahujan) are losing their everyday Resources are getting realized that we need to be socially very strong. We need to start a movement. We need to start a struggle against these things. It is happening everywhere. Media is not reporting it. Media just reports the atrocity cases.
I want to say one thing. The need of the hour for Bahujans of this country is to form our own Institutions. Big or small whatever. Could be autonomous. That is the only way ahead. I might be right or wrong.
Kuffir: Babasaheb himself laid down the need for own Institutions. He himself build own Institute. Like us, he didn’t have much resources.
Rahul: Yes. He managed. Even Kanshiram for that matter. He built a Political movement. He built up the organization through People’s money, people’s support, through People’s collective Intellect. So it is possible for us. Ambedkar, Kanshiramji proved and they showed and they gave us the example that you can do it. You can change the Politics of this country. You can change the social dynamics of this country. Now we are saying that we can also change the economic condition of this country. But through our own Socio-Political-Economic Institutions.
Youngsters from Dalit Bahujan background coming to Universities, who are studying, or who are doing jobs should realize one thing that the Institutions which are there are mostly owned by the Upper Castes and if we don’t fight against this caste hegemony, we need to create our own Institutions.
Kuffir: We have to find innovative solutions to our lack of Resources. Lack of resources never stopped the Mahars themselves. Or the Buddhists in Maharashtra from getting educated. It didn’t stop the Chamaars in UP. We have come to a critical juncture where the Upper Castes are feeling (not just in JNU but the larger society) the pressure of this Dalit Intellectual challenge. Which direction it will take will be mostly decided by the students, younger people and other activists like you. Your visit to Hyderabad now was also on the Second Anniversary of the martyrdom of Rohith Vemula. How do you think of the whole situation? There is Rohith Vemula and Muthu Krishnan and Aneetha and others. We also documented them from 2008 in Insight.
Rahul: When I visited HCU, I see that our students who are coming to the so-called modern Institutions and committing suicide, I think the suicides are not the suicides. They are product of your society. The violence inflicted by the Brahminical society where Brahmins are still at the top and the Upper Castes are controlling all the power. I see this as a collective violence of the Upper Castes. They isolate Dalits because they are assertive. As the white people in America wanted the Good Blacks, same here in the University. These all regressive, progressive Upper castes want Good Dalit. And if you are not Good Dalit, you have to pay the toll. And we are seeing the suicides. Aneetha, Muthu Krishnan, Rohith Vemula. This is the collective violence by the upper Castes in the modern educational institutions. Rohith Vemula Shahdat Din (Death Anniversary) always asks me this question.
Kuffir: Even Najeeb for that matter
Rahul: Yes. It remains a mystery. And it happens in one of the progressive Institutions of this country.
Kuffir: Why should it remain a mystery? Home Ministry is there. Central Home Ministry is there. Security establishment is there.
Rahul: Security is there not for us. Najeeb’s case tells us that Security and safeguards are not there for the poor and marginalized sections of this country. The safeguards are for these Upper Castes. The safeguards are to protect their car, their chair, their money, their food, everything, from the Bahujans. These facilities in the Universities are not for us. And Najeeb’s case is the simple example. You have security. You have all so called well established order in the University. And one Muslim student gets attacked in the name of religion & identity. Suddenly he gets disappeared. So it shows that the Universities are the real Agraharas for us. They are no different from the villages and the society which is outside.
Kuffir: They are worse than the villages. They are supposed to be better.
Rahul: They are supposed to be modern and democratic but they are not.
Kuffir: My view is they are supplying new kind of theorization for caste to the Villages. The cesspit is now in the Universities. What do you see as future for BAPSA. You see some positive elements.
Rahul: BAPSA is growing
Kuffir: It’s growing. In HCU also, ASA has made remarkable progress. Of course this is a long struggle, and BAPSA has taken some positive strides. I hope this continues. Any final words you would like to say to our viewers?
Rahul: The final words, since I am a University student, I would like to tell you that in the Indian Universities, they haven’t produced any Literature for our emancipation. Because most of the Indian Universities are captured by the Upper castes of this country. They have produced the False discourse and the false knowledge about us. They have made or reduced us as an insect and animal in the laboratory and therefore this is the responsibility of Bahujan students in the campuses that they need to understand they need to create their own history. We need to write our own history. We need to speak our history. We need to speak our experiences. We need to write theories. We need to write these alternative radical theories ourselves if we want to go to the Universities. This is my final say.
Kuffir: Thank you very much. Jai Bhim!
Rahul: Thank you very much. Jai Bhim!
The Interview was transcribed by Vinay Shende. The YouTube link of the article is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrY3BIuGIts&t=2877s
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Rahul Sonpimple is a research student at JNU and a leader of BAPSA (Birsa Ambedkar Phule Students’ Association).
